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4 link rear LJ
November 30, 2011
10:10 pm
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I am looking to triangulate the rear upper control arms on my 2006 LJ. I currently have RE 5.5" long arm kit and I don't like the track bar yaw (or side to side movement) that I currently get. I am planning on using the re skid and lower control arm basically as is. The question I have is in the upper control arms. I plan on shortening the arms to approx 70% of the lowers. Should I re-use the re chromoly arms and put different joints on the ends? Or should I make new control arms with dom tube? Then should I use heims or rebuildable joint ( Johnny Joint)? I already have purchased an axle truss, all the link tabs and an adjustable upper front bracket from Ruffstuff. The bracket hole size is 5/8", too large for re joints. They advise using heims but that is all they sell. Any input would be nice. Thanks in advance!

December 1, 2011
12:03 am
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BKGM Jeepers
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I'd go all new components including the arms, but that's just me. I don't like reusing stuff if I can avoid it. For a bolt as large as you're talking about, the joint probably won't matter outside of noise and future rebuildability. I think Joe found some huge joints that weren't too expensive (he showed one to me a few months back).

December 1, 2011
1:38 am
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JohnDF
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Rob runs the Clayton upper rear triangulation kit. It has worked really well, but he had to re-inforce the RE skidplate because it was tearing away.

I used to wheel a lot. . .

December 1, 2011
3:40 am
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"BKGM Jeepers" wrote: I'd go all new components including the arms, but that's just me. I don't like reusing stuff if I can avoid it. For a bolt as large as you're talking about, the joint probably won't matter outside of noise and future rebuildability. I think Joe found some huge joints that weren't too expensive (he showed one to me a few months back).

I tend to agree that all new is better. Do you think I can sell my upper control arms? There is quite a dispute about heims vs rebuildable joints. I'm still undecided.

December 1, 2011
4:52 am
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BKGM Jeepers
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You can sell them but because they are for a long arm you'll probably do better selling them individually as trail spares.

December 1, 2011
5:05 am
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Gregulator
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I love my 4 link. mr-green

Um...what?

December 1, 2011
11:24 am
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"lj4x4" wrote: [quote="BKGM Jeepers"]I'd go all new components including the arms, but that's just me. I don't like reusing stuff if I can avoid it. For a bolt as large as you're talking about, the joint probably won't matter outside of noise and future rebuildability. I think Joe found some huge joints that weren't too expensive (he showed one to me a few months back).

I tend to agree that all new is better. Do you think I can sell my upper control arms? There is quite a dispute about heims vs rebuildable joints. I'm still undecided.

The joint I showed Brad a little big for uppers. They are more for lowers beating the crap out of rocks. Haven't made my final decision on what I'm going to use yet either on my lowers.I've got some xtras if you want to borrow some for mock-up but they are all large joints 1 1/4"shank with 9/16 bolt hole. I've seen the RE uppers used with no problems( with the 1/2" bolt upgrade) but i think it depends on the driver and geometry used. Most of the people I know mount to the frame and not the belly pan to get a little more angle on the arms. There claim was that it helped prevent rear steer. Have liked all that I have driven but they were more "truggies" than jeeps. I did drive one TJ with the RE set up and thought it was junk.

December 1, 2011
6:15 pm
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"jsmorrow" wrote: [quote="lj4x4"][quote="BKGM Jeepers"]I'd go all new components including the arms, but that's just me. I don't like reusing stuff if I can avoid it. For a bolt as large as you're talking about, the joint probably won't matter outside of noise and future rebuildability. I think Joe found some huge joints that weren't too expensive (he showed one to me a few months back).

I tend to agree that all new is better. Do you think I can sell my upper control arms? There is quite a dispute about heims vs rebuildable joints. I'm still undecided.

The joint I showed Brad a little big for uppers. They are more for lowers beating the crap out of rocks. Haven't made my final decision on what I'm going to use yet either on my lowers.I've got some xtras if you want to borrow some for mock-up but they are all large joints 1 1/4"shank with 9/16 bolt hole. I've seen the RE uppers used with no problems( with the 1/2" bolt upgrade) but i think it depends on the driver and geometry used. Most of the people I know mount to the frame and not the belly pan to get a little more angle on the arms. There claim was that it helped prevent rear steer. Have liked all that I have driven but they were more "truggies" than jeeps. I did drive one TJ with the RE set up and thought it was junk.

Thanks Joe, My upper frame brackets are per-drilled and taped for a 5/8 inch bolt so I will have to change the joint. I talked to Ruffstuff and it sounds like 7/8" heims are the way to go so wont have to worry about strength issues in the future. I am planning on attaching the uppers to the frame between 70%- 80% of the lowers. Otherwise there is not enough angle to support lateral loads.

Using the 4 Link Calculator, I modeled the Re Long arm kit to serve as a frame of reference. The new link brackets are adjustable and I should be able to dial in the antisquat numbers and the roll axis. So I hope this thing will be close, geometry speaking, to a good performer. We will see.

Any more input/ ideas welcome......

December 1, 2011
8:14 pm
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Keep good records of what you do and use so we can do mine when you have it all figured out. wink

December 1, 2011
9:41 pm
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I'm not sure what joints Clayton uses. I think johnny joints. But I grease mine maybe once a year and they have been solid for 3 years now.

Also feel free at the next club meeting to lay under my jeep and stare at how clayton did it. My buddy did a 4 link with his RE kit. I'll try and snag some photos of it when I go by his house this afternoon.

Um...what?

December 2, 2011
12:04 am
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"Justin" wrote: Keep good records of what you do and use so we can do mine when you have it all figured out. wink

That's cheating rant

December 2, 2011
12:08 am
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"finder_87" wrote: I'm not sure what joints Clayton uses. I think johnny joints. But I grease mine maybe once a year and they have been solid for 3 years now.

Also feel free at the next club meeting to lay under my jeep and stare at how clayton did it. My buddy did a 4 link with his RE kit. I'll try and snag some photos of it when I go by his house this afternoon.

Photos would be great! I like the johnny joints but I'm still not convinced the cost is worth it. Where does your Clayton upper control arm connect at the frame?
Thanks beer

December 2, 2011
2:48 am
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I will pipe in here! If you are going to 4 link the rear, don't use the brackets on the RE skid plate. Buy a set of weld on rear 4 link brackets, geometry is done for you. All you need to do is build arms and a truss over the pumpkin. Large Jonny joints are worth the money, they are solid as a rock and don't wear out.

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December 2, 2011
3:49 am
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"lj4x4" wrote: [quote="finder_87"]I'm not sure what joints Clayton uses. I think johnny joints. But I grease mine maybe once a year and they have been solid for 3 years now.

Also feel free at the next club meeting to lay under my jeep and stare at how clayton did it. My buddy did a 4 link with his RE kit. I'll try and snag some photos of it when I go by his house this afternoon.

Photos would be great! I like the johnny joints but I'm still not convinced the cost is worth it. Where does your Clayton upper control arm connect at the frame?
Thanks beer

If you like Johnny's they are 40.00 ea. at fwp's. for the 2.5" Joint W/1.25 shank. Not all that happy with mine as they will not rotate, might need more break-in or? currie is sending new inserts.

December 2, 2011
4:03 am
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"lj4x4" wrote: [quote="lj4x4"][quote="BKGM Jeepers"]I'd go all new components including the arms, but that's just me. I don't like reusing stuff if I can avoid it. For a bolt as large as you're talking about, the joint probably won't matter outside of noise and future rebuildability. I think Joe found some huge joints that weren't too expensive (he showed one to me a few months back).

I tend to agree that all new is better. Do you think I can sell my upper control arms? There is quite a dispute about heims vs rebuildable joints. I'm still undecided.

Thanks Joe, My upper frame brackets are per-drilled and taped for a 5/8 inch bolt so I will have to change the joint. I talked to Ruffstuff and it sounds like 7/8" heims are the way to go so wont have to worry about strength issues in the future. I am planning on attaching the uppers to the frame between 70%- 80% of the lowers. Otherwise there is not enough angle to support lateral loads.

Using the 4 Link Calculator, I modeled the Re Long arm kit to serve as a frame of reference. The new link brackets are adjustable and I should be able to dial in the antisquat numbers and the roll axis. So I hope this thing will be close, geometry speaking, to a good performer. We will see.

Any more input/ ideas welcome......

New lower control arm brackets? The stock ones might not cut it. Might want to see what the calculator says if you move the lower rear mount up about 3/4 " to be closer to the rotational centerline.

December 2, 2011
4:23 am
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"RobD" wrote: I will pipe in here! If you are going to 4 link the rear, don't use the brackets on the RE skid plate. Buy a set of weld on rear 4 link brackets, geometry is done for you. All you need to do is build arms and a truss over the pumpkin. Large Jonny joints are worth the money, they are solid as a rock and don't wear out.

Thanks for the info! Why do you say not to use the re skid brackets? I am only planning on using the lowers. The uppers will be adjustable and welded on the frame. The weld on 4 link brackets would be easier. This would make the uppers and lowers the same length. I have read it may be better to have the uppers slightly shorter to increase your anitsquat which gives increased traction on compression. What do you think? Thanks again.

December 2, 2011
5:03 am
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Joe you are correct sir! I am planning on moving the lower control arm axle connection up 1.75 inches so that the bolt is at the bottom of the axle tube. I got some 3/8 inch. Ruffstuff link tabs. should be plenty strong. the anti squat numbers vary from 97 to 58 depending on which hole I use. The roll axis is at 4deg. positive. This is the same as the RE La kit. Everything looks good on paper but you know how that never translates to the real world.

December 2, 2011
5:08 am
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"lj4x4" wrote: [quote="finder_87"]I'm not sure what joints Clayton uses. I think johnny joints. But I grease mine maybe once a year and they have been solid for 3 years now.

Also feel free at the next club meeting to lay under my jeep and stare at how clayton did it. My buddy did a 4 link with his RE kit. I'll try and snag some photos of it when I go by his house this afternoon.

Photos would be great! I like the johnny joints but I'm still not convinced the cost is worth it. Where does your Clayton upper control arm connect at the frame?
Thanks beer

http://claytonoffroad.com/product_info.php/cPath/27_120/products_id/130
These ar the brackets I have. Upper and lower all in one. They are reversed in the picture. You can see the upper mounts sit right inside the frame rails.

Um...what?

December 2, 2011
2:45 pm
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Upper 4 link arms rotate a lot when flexing. The RE skid plate is not designed to take it and it will bend. I did some major reinforcing on my RE brackets after the upper arms ripped off several times. The upper arm brackets are the issue. I had a thread on it, I will see if I can find it. I like the GenRight rear 4 link brackets. Using a weld on bracket will not make the arms the same length. You are triangulating them, you will not have a problem achieving the 70%

"lj4x4" wrote: [quote="RobD"]I will pipe in here! If you are going to 4 link the rear, don't use the brackets on the RE skid plate. Buy a set of weld on rear 4 link brackets, geometry is done for you. All you need to do is build arms and a truss over the pumpkin. Large Jonny joints are worth the money, they are solid as a rock and don't wear out.

Thanks for the info! Why do you say not to use the re skid brackets? I am only planning on using the lowers. The uppers will be adjustable and welded on the frame. The weld on 4 link brackets would be easier. This would make the uppers and lowers the same length. I have read it may be better to have the uppers slightly shorter to increase your anitsquat which gives increased traction on compression. What do you think? Thanks again.

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December 2, 2011
4:53 pm
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Depending on what you end up with be ready for an aftermarket rear swaybar. Just be sure you don't get too far foreward of the rear axle centerline with the lower rear mounts,I don't know if the tubewall of the std. 44 will take the shift in stress, not sure how your upper truss is going to mount. This is almost like sprint cars all-over again.

December 3, 2011
4:05 am
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Just FYI, I don't run a rear sway bar with my 4 link. mr-green

Um...what?

December 3, 2011
5:13 am
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Have never driven a clayton. Maybe they got something there. Last drove LJ's, one with coilovers and another with six pack's. Both were better with genright swaybar.

December 3, 2011
6:29 am
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"jsmorrow" wrote: Have never driven a clayton. Maybe they got something there. Last drove LJ's, one with coilovers and another with six pack's. Both were better with genright swaybar.

I was hoping to not run a sway bar. But I know I probably won't get that lucky. I'm still playing with the mounting locations and trying to get decent geometry numbers.

Crazy thought..... Would it be possible to make a sway bar out of a Toyota tortion bar? Just add adjustable arms.... Wonder if it would work. I think genrights sway bar is way too expensive.

December 3, 2011
6:42 am
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"jsmorrow" wrote: Depending on what you end up with be ready for an aftermarket rear swaybar. Just be sure you don't get too far foreward of the rear axle centerline with the lower rear mounts,I don't know if the tubewall of the std. 44 will take the shift in stress, not sure how your upper truss is going to mount. This is almost like sprint cars all-over again.

Joe could you explain what you mean by not getting the mounts too far foreword. Are you referring to keeping the mounts in a location to reduce torsion on the axle under acceleration? I have heard that I should keep the lower mount bolt at or below the bottom of the axle. My truss is the Ruffstuff d44 torsion box. It welds to the tubes just out side the diff. Just trying to understand. Thanks

December 3, 2011
1:29 pm
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I haven't ran a rear swaybar in years. As long as you have a solid front swaybar I think you'll be fine.

I used to wheel a lot. . .

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