3:05 pm
January 27, 2011
Offline
Need to get a read on the importance of being able to disconnect the front hubs. I know for some time that Jeep has been building their rigs with full-time front axles and my XJ is one of them. I've heard 2 arguments more frequently than any others for having manual hubs: less wear and being able to disconnect one side while having the front differential locked while off road should you find yourself in a tight place. I may, at some point, put a locker in the front axle but am not planning on that at present ... I want to sleep indoors in my own bed.
In my case, my XJ does not see enough road time that I'm concerned about too much wear due to miles. With over 160K miles, that ship has sailed with the only road miles now being getting to and from runs and the occasional trip to keep the battery charged and mechanicals limbered up. The XJ can sit for days or a couple of weeks at a time as I work from home.
So, in my case, can you see any reason for me to go to the expense of installing a manual hub conversion?
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If you do not change direction, you may end up where you are heading -- Lao Tzu
3:10 pm
Club Member
July 10, 2003
Offline The biggest reason for having manual hubs is the ability to unlock them when something breaks, allowing you to get off the trail and home again.
Another big reason, at least for me, is they act like a fuse and will blow before my ujoints and shafts. A hub is an easy 15 minute fix on the trail, break a ujoint or shaft and it could be over for the day.
I used to wheel a lot. . .
4:47 pm
I agree with John, the manual hub is a great way to protect the axle and make it so you can still get off the trail. I would not worry about the wear and tear on the axle with the auto hub. Also I would spend my money on a locker before I did manual hub conversion. A complete d30 hub conversion kit is $1400 and you can get an arb for less than a thousand. I run the factory full time hubs and haven't had a problem.
5:48 pm
January 27, 2011
Offline This is what I needed to know ... thanks.
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If you do not change direction, you may end up where you are heading -- Lao Tzu
6:22 pm
Club President
April 2, 2003
Offline I broke a u-joint on my TJ without manual hubs. It was work to get home (and dangerous in my case). If I had been running manual hubs, I could have opened them and driven home. I've owned/converted to manual hubs ever since.
The TJ my wife had ran the warn manual hubs on it's D30. They never failed. The TJ ran a HP D30 with an ARB, superior shafts, warn manual hubs and 4.88 gears.
8:12 pm
January 27, 2011
Offline Good points everyone. This is the information I need to make intelligent decisions to get this stage of the drivetrain completed. I really, really, REALLY need to put some focus ... and $$$ ... into protection, reinforcement and recovery so I don't want to go off half-cocked at this point. Here's what I'm thinking so please jump in with your thoughts.
(1) The rear axle being put in is complete and built the way I want with the exception of the Track-Lok instead of locker. For now, I can live with that. Any additional traction mechanism is better than open. Besides, for the short term I can replace the friction clutches on my own should that be necessary. I've read up and it's not beyond my abilities. No money or time spent here.
(2) The chances of breaking the front axle or axle u-joint on an open differential is pretty remote unless you are (a) being stupid or (b) trying to. You just won't get that much torque on one side before the other breaks loose.
(3) I must re-gear the front differential at a minimum. The rear has 4.88 gears, which is what I wanted, so that needs to be done in the front. Quote from 4 Wheel Parts is about $550, complete.
(4) Knowing what I know about labor costs and using the on-line pricing from 4 Wheel Parts (including GHP discount) to re-gear, install manual hubs with 30-spline HD axles and install an E-locker would be in the range of ~$3000. That is way beyond my budget at this time ESPECIALLY figuring I still need to deal with protection, reinforcement and recovery.
(5) Maybe a mid-point to improve things would be to install a Detroit TrueTrac. Pricing is about $375 and the installation cost should be covered by the installation of the new 4.88 gears, at least for the most part. That would give better than open traction in front but still not require upgrading axles as the LSD would slip before things got too out of hand. I am familiar with the "throttle/break" method of regaining traction so it would be a good way to go on the short term.
After few other things are completed and budget allows, the E-lockers ... first rear then front ... would be done. When the front is done the manual hubs with 30-spline chrome-moly axles could be put in. I could also sell the TrueTrack with 27-spline axles as trail spares.
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If you do not change direction, you may end up where you are heading -- Lao Tzu
9:02 pm
Tom,
You bring up some very similar paths for myself. Let me put what my current thoughts for the heck of it. I may change up again and this would be a good reference. My thought is to get both of my replacement axles ready for bolt in. This meaning up to the gears, minimum. Locker can go in later. Ideal if at the same time of course. As you note, it's a big chunk-o- 
So...I'm headed now to do the protection work. Thus utilize my stock axles to the best of their ability. I've no shame to be strapped when need be. 
From that clinic last fall, the protection aspect has been locked in my head for some time. (Thanks Brad!!)
Having said that...I can poke around looking deals on the parts needed, which recently resulted in that front axle. 😀
9:47 pm
January 27, 2011
Offline Carl,
No doubt we are covering some of the same issues as many others have. Not sure of the relevance to your situation but the issue with the XJ is exacerbated by the change in tire size. When I went to the 33" tires, effectively they are 21% larger than what came from the factory. This has done a number of "unfriendly things.
(1) By the numbers, 1st gear is now almost to where 2nd gear used to be. Low end grunt has been affected greatly both on and off road.
(2) 4th gear is now so high, to render it almost useless. 66MPH is 1900RPM. The transmission want to drop into 2nd at the slightest incline ... that's right, 2nd! Pulling a long hill is excruciating as I cannot get it to lock into 3rd.
(3) If I lock into 3rd on the highway, the transmission does not want to "lock-up" so I'm cruising in 3rd at 2400RPM. I'm sure it's also scrambling the computer trying to sort all this out. Result? Welcome to 12MPG.
Trust me, I didn't get the XJ for high fuel mileage and expected to loose some as I went higher and put on bigger tires, but going from 30" tires to 33" took fuel mileage from a consistent 17MPG to 12MPG. I'm afraid that damage is being done so re-gearing is at the top of my list of things to do even if it might cost me a few more $$$ to finish later. Replacing a transmission or such will be much more costly. Plus, I won't be able to tell when ... or where ... it will fail.
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If you do not change direction, you may end up where you are heading -- Lao Tzu
10:04 pm
Club President
April 2, 2003
Offline A couple of thoughts here.
First - IMO, don't put a limited slip type locker up front - especially without manual hubs. I've watched people nearly slide off the road on snow runs when the locker grapped. One occurance and I bet your wife will stop riding with you on snow runs.
I'd save the money until later. That way if you upgrade to a higher spline axleshaft kit, the locker will match. This seemls like a logical timing for the upgrade.
Be sure to keep your u-joints lubed. This is the number one cause of failure. Mine failed while unlocked from what I recall, though I was in 4wd. Most stock u-joints offer no zirk. Upgrading is a cheap option if your joints have never been replaced.
I built my TJ on a budget and repeated multiple steps. This cost me extra money, but did fit my budget each time. For my Jk, I saved in advance and then did it all at once. Both ways work...
If you need help finding budget items/prices, let me know.
Good luck!
10:18 pm
Club Member
September 3, 2008
Offline I know a lot of information has been thrown at you. But, here is a little more. This would be something to think about if the dana 30 will be a lifer in your rig. I think you have already made that decision so I think this may be up your alley.
http://www.polyperformance.com/shop/Rei ... 26733.html
This knuckle will allow you to run dana 44 outers on your dana 30 axle. I know it appears price at first but when you compare it to the warn hub kit ($1500 or so), its not that bad. Especially since you can source a lot of the neccassary parts at junkyards or local parts stores (with the posse discount 
). Also one other beneficial thought would be that the hub John speaks of would be the fuse. The hub you would be using would be the same hub that John, Justin and I all run, along with anyone else running a front dana 44. So, if parts were ever an issue, most of us might have the right spare.
Um...what?
10:40 pm
January 27, 2011
Offline "BKGM Jeepers" wrote: A couple of thoughts here.
First - IMO, don't put a limited slip type locker up front - especially without manual hubs. I've watched people nearly slide off the road on snow runs when the locker grapped. One occurance and I bet your wife will stop riding with you on snow runs.
I'd save the money until later. That way if you upgrade to a higher spline axleshaft kit, the locker will match. This seemls like a logical timing for the upgrade.
Be sure to keep your u-joints lubed. This is the number one cause of failure. Mine failed while unlocked from what I recall, though I was in 4wd. Most stock u-joints offer no zirk. Upgrading is a cheap option if your joints have never been replaced.
I built my TJ on a budget and repeated multiple steps. This cost me extra money, but did fit my budget each time. For my Jk, I saved in advance and then did it all at once. Both ways work...
If you need help finding budget items/prices, let me know.
Good luck!
This sounds good. No LSD ... but seeing as the axles need to come out anyway to do the gears, it might be a good idea to replace the axle u-joints. When I replaced the sealed bearings a couple of years ago I debated doing them then and opted not to. They were limber and not "notchy" at all. But as I've started considering things not on the RADAR then, it might be cheap insurance to put in a set that are greasible.
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If you do not change direction, you may end up where you are heading -- Lao Tzu
10:59 pm
January 27, 2011
Offline "finder_87" wrote: I know a lot of information has been thrown at you. But, here is a little more. This would be something to think about if the dana 30 will be a lifer in your rig. I think you have already made that decision so I think this may be up your alley.
http://www.polyperformance.com/shop/Rei ... 26733.html
This knuckle will allow you to run dana 44 outers on your dana 30 axle. I know it appears price at first but when you compare it to the warn hub kit ($1500 or so), its not that bad. Especially since you can source a lot of the neccassary parts at junkyards or local parts stores (with the posse discount
No such thing as too much information. If I can't sort it out on my own, the questions will start.
This looks like a very interesting possibility. I've had no luck finding an existing HP44 for the front, well, at least not at the price I want to pay ... how's that? My intention is not to build quite as hard core a rig as some folks but just be capable of maintaining the pace taking bypasses and such.
I've got these knuckles bookmarked so I can find them again. Definitely look like some thing I can get a bit at a time until all parts are assembled then take a day to install. Thanks!!
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If you do not change direction, you may end up where you are heading -- Lao Tzu
11:22 pm
Club President
April 2, 2003
Offline JK Rubicon front is a HP D44, but I don't think the TJ's is.
11:34 pm
Club Member
July 10, 2003
Offline "finder_87" wrote: The hub you would be using would be the same hub that John, Justin and I all run, along with anyone else running a front dana 44. So, if parts were ever an issue, most of us might have the right spare.
Excellent point. Running a lot of the same parts as everybody else increases the chances of somebody having spares when something goes wrong.
I used to wheel a lot. . .
1:24 am
Roger that Tom.
I just learned from Jeff last night that some carriers have a break point in the gears. Apparently, typical spot is 4.10s. For the front 4.88s were you already having to get new carrier in that quote or use a locker in its place?
I plan on learning to then install my own darn locker/gears and is that an option for you?
2:47 am
Club President
April 2, 2003
Offline On jeeps (TJ's at least) the breakpoint is 3.73 and higher or under 3.73.
3:00 am
"BKGM Jeepers" wrote:
First - IMO, don't put a limited slip type locker up front - especially without manual hubs. I've watched people nearly slide off the road on snow runs when the locker grapped. One occurance and I bet your wife will stop riding with you on snow runs.
I've ridden with people that have done that. At the time I was riding in the driver seat. 😀
A front locker would be (is) so far down my list I don't really see it happening. Just not worth it for most wheeling. Around here if you pick a good line I think you can get through pretty much everything you want. You may just have to back down and try again or use a bit of throttle if you don't make it the first time. 😀
3:11 am
January 27, 2011
Offline "BKGM Jeepers" wrote: On jeeps (TJ's at least) the breakpoint is 3.73 and higher or under 3.73.
What Brad said ... on the Dana 30 it is 3.73 and up (large carrier) and 3.55 and below (small carrier).
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(edited)
If you do not change direction, you may end up where you are heading -- Lao Tzu
1:13 pm
January 27, 2011
Offline "Wh1t3Nukle" wrote: Roger that Tom.
I just learned from Jeff last night that some carriers have a break point in the gears. Apparently, typical spot is 4.10s. For the front 4.88s were you already having to get new carrier in that quote or use a locker in its place?
I plan on learning to then install my own darn locker/gears and is that an option for you?
It appears that there is a carrier break point on all differentials. The Dana 44 is at 3.93, the C8.25 is 2.73 (I believe), etc. Yeah, I knew I needed a new carrier as 3.55 was the top of the D30s smaller carrier's size.
The only time you wouldn't need to replace the carrier when moving up or down is when a lunch box locker is used.. They replace the spider gears.
And typically I'd be all over learning and doing my own differential work as well, but I understand the tools and measuring devices necessary to do so are spendy and very purpose specific.
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If you do not change direction, you may end up where you are heading -- Lao Tzu
1:20 pm
January 27, 2011
Offline "BKGM Jeepers" wrote: JK Rubicon front is a HP D44, but I don't think the TJ's is.
And that is correct. For some reason, Jeep started using the LP D30 in the TJs. The XJ and YJ used HP D30.
Would the JK HP D44 be a bolt in or would mods be necessary?
Also, I'm going to need some help building a parts list to complete the D30/D44 hybrid using those knuckles so I can put together a budget.
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If you do not change direction, you may end up where you are heading -- Lao Tzu
3:08 pm
That's what I was leading to on the carrier in that I'll be using the ARB as the carrier. That is some $$$ savings. However, as said earlier you may not be able to time those things simultaneously, assuming it was an ARB.
3:37 pm
January 27, 2011
Offline "Wh1t3Nukle" wrote: That's what I was leading to on the carrier in that I'll be using the ARB as the carrier. That is some $$$ savings. However, as said earlier you may not be able to time those things simultaneously, assuming it was an ARB.
Myself, I'll probably go with the Eaton e-locker. In my own head, for some reason, I prefer the electric over the air control. Not 100% sure why. I think it is less $$$ to install unless you already have OBA which I will at some point. Maybe it's just because I've dealt with electrical my whole life a lot more than pneumatic.
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If you do not change direction, you may end up where you are heading -- Lao Tzu
3:46 pm
Club Member
July 10, 2003
Offline As you are finding out, one decision leads to another and the price tag just keeps rising. Have a plan, stick to it and be patient. Otherwise you'll be paying to re-do some stuff; like not putting lockers in at the same time you re-gear will cost you two set-up fees and the cost of a carrier.
For my black jeep, I know that I want an air system, ARB lockers, 4:88 gears, and I'll also need a module to reprogram the computer. Since I do not want to pay for re-doing anything my plan is to gather the parts in my garage until I have everything I need and then have somebody install everything all at once. This gives me time to shop for deals and probably save on labor costs.
I used to wheel a lot. . .
3:51 pm
[quote="TomD"]Good points everyone. This is the information I need to make intelligent decisions to get this stage of the drivetrain completed. I really, really, REALLY need to put some focus ... and $$$ ... into protection, reinforcement and recovery so I don't want to go off half-cocked at this point. Here's what I'm thinking so please jump in with your thoughts.
(2) The chances of breaking the front axle or axle u-joint on an open differential is pretty remote unless you are (a) being stupid or (b) trying to. You just won't get that much torque on one side before the other breaks loose.
I do not agree with the u-joint thing here. Have had and seen way too many non serviceable spicer joint problems. Don't wait until one let's go because it may take the stock shaft with it. I would replace them when you re-gear and carry one spare. For 20$ a piece it is worth it. The first time you are are aired down on a big slab of granite and turn the wheel may change your mind...
4:00 pm
January 27, 2011
Offline "jsmorrow" wrote: [quote="TomD"]Good points everyone. This is the information I need to make intelligent decisions to get this stage of the drivetrain completed. I really, really, REALLY need to put some focus ... and $$$ ... into protection, reinforcement and recovery so I don't want to go off half-cocked at this point. Here's what I'm thinking so please jump in with your thoughts.
(2) The chances of breaking the front axle or axle u-joint on an open differential is pretty remote unless you are (a) being stupid or (b) trying to. You just won't get that much torque on one side before the other breaks loose.
I do not agree with the u-joint thing here. Have had and seen way too many non serviceable spicer joint problems. Don't wait until one let's go because it may take the stock shaft with it. I would replace them when you re-gear and carry one spare. For 20$ a piece it is worth it. The first time you are are aired down on a big slab of granite and turn the wheel may change your mind...
Noted. I'm going to have new u-joints put in as the axles will be out to re-gear. Good time to pick up trail spares.
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If you do not change direction, you may end up where you are heading -- Lao Tzu
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