2:03 am
January 27, 2011
Offline
There is so much that I've been learning over the past year that I'm almost suffering from "paralysis by analysis" ... but not quite. A number of runs and mods have been made over the last 9 months and a few things have come to light that needed to be done, dealt with or ignored. Things like re-gearing, lockers, skids and rockers are down the road for sure but there are some items I'm contemplating and need input as to how strongly to consider. The first is steering.
With 5" of lift, I'm afraid I might be maxing out my TREs and track bar when at full droop. What are the thoughts on moving everything above the axle (OTK)? On an XJ, those components would then be operating as though they were on a 2" lift.
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If you do not change direction, you may end up where you are heading -- Lao Tzu
2:24 am
Club Member
January 20, 2009
Offline If you have the D30 in front this might be an inexpensive option...
3:03 am
January 27, 2011
Offline "kevheb" wrote: If you have the D30 in front this might be an inexpensive option...
Saw that. And by using the drag link from the RHD Cherokee, which is readily available, the passenger side can be flipped up OTK as well. Then use the OEM drag link in place of the tie rod and you have a new location for the steering stabilizer AND enough room to retain the sway bar without modifications. The only thing left is to raise the track bar as well. All stock parts!
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If you do not change direction, you may end up where you are heading -- Lao Tzu
3:34 am
One thing to think about is the relationship of the track bar to the drag link. If these are at different angles you will get bump steer. If you raise the steering and leave the track bar there might be a problem. Most lift kits give you a drop pitman arm and a drop track bar to keep everything parallel.
Also, you will still have the weak factory steering. You might want something like the Currie Big steer. I have one and I still bent it. Of course I wasn't paying attention to the boulder I rammed. But I'm still running the bent one because I know the one inch chromemolly rod won't bend again. This thing is stout. Just my 2.5 cents
4:09 am
July 15, 2005
Offline Building your own trac bar, drag link, and tie rod is 100 times stronger and way cheaper than off the shelf crap. Buying off the shelf you are limiting yourself to their specifications which is not always what works best.
__________________
'If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."- Ronald Reagan
4:37 am
January 27, 2011
Offline "lj4x4" wrote: One thing to think about is the relationship of the track bar to the drag link. If these are at different angles you will get bump steer. If you raise the steering and leave the track bar there might be a problem. Most lift kits give you a drop pitman arm and a drop track bar to keep everything parallel.
Also, you will still have the weak factory steering. You might want something like the Currie Big steer. I have one and I still bent it. Of course I wasn't paying attention to the boulder I rammed. But I'm still running the bent one because I know the one inch chromemolly rod won't bend again. This thing is stout. Just my 2.5 cents
"RobD" wrote: Building your own trac bar, drag link, and tie rod is 100 times stronger and way cheaper than off the shelf crap. Buying off the shelf you are limiting yourself to their specifications which is not always what works best.
I'd love to design and build my own set up, just don't have the expertise or tools necessary to do so. Ran a production shop for a number of years and always had other folks do the fab work while I stuck to the "engineering".
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If you do not change direction, you may end up where you are heading -- Lao Tzu
7:22 pm
January 27, 2011
Offline Well, not to extend the thread any longer than necessary, here was the thought process behind the OTK steering.
First is the lift of ~4.5"-5". I was concerned at that lift, the XJ'x ability to actually flex would be hindered by the TREs operating parameters being taken up by the lift. One option would be to go with a dropped pitman arm matched to a dropped track bar mount (frame side) to keep track bar and drag link in line (eliminate bump steer). Then I heard Joe talking about the failure rate among the dropped pitman arms he'd been exposed to. My thinking was I could go to the OTK to get the proper angles on the TREs once again and, at the same time, adjust the axle side of the track bar to maintain the track bar/drag link parameters. It would also get the steering components just that much further out of harms way and reduce the forces induced on the steering box by the dropped pitman arm. That last part good for both the box and the frame which is a known week spot on XJ. I intend to install the frame reinforcement and steering box brace to be VERY sure that all stays put.
There are many OTK setups out there but the one I'm particularly fond of was done by an aussie who used a LHD and RHD drag links to make his own OTK setup. In his case, he flipped the LHD drag link so it would go over the top at the passenger side and used the RHD to replace the tie rod. Both of those units are stout! Then it was just a matter of measuring how high the track bar mount needed to be to keep the relationship and weld in place. Obviously here in the stated where we have left hand drive, I'd do just the opposite but you get the idea. Using the drag link as the tie rod also gives you a location for the steering damper. And did I mention all these parts are factory?
Any way, until I start on this I'm still researching.
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If you do not change direction, you may end up where you are heading -- Lao Tzu
10:18 pm
May 4, 2004
Offline "TomD" wrote: Both of those units are stout!
Mine bent. Not drastically, but enough to throw off the front end alignment. After doing that a few times I replaced the draglink and tierod with heavier duty factory ZJ parts. Later I replaced the ZJ parts with the Currie draglink and tierod. The Currie steering dwarfs the factory TJ steering. Does the XJ use the same steering as a TJ or is it more like the ZJ?
Edit) Correction, I only used the ZJ tierod not the drag link.
11:23 pm
January 27, 2011
Offline "FAM" wrote: [quote="TomD"]Both of those units are stout!
Mine bent. Not drastically, but enough to throw off the front end alignment. After doing that a few times I replaced the draglink and tierod with heavier duty factory ZJ parts. Later I replaced the ZJ parts with the Currie draglink and tierod. The Currie steering dwarfs the factory TJ steering. Does the XJ use the same steering as a TJ or is it more like the ZJ?
Edit) Correction, I only used the ZJ tierod not the drag link.
The XJ and ZJ share the same drag link (25mm). The v8ZJ tie rod is solid cast steel and significantly more substantial (22mm) while the XJ, TJ and the 6-cyl ZJ use the tube-type tie rod (16mm). Using the RHD drag link as a tie rod is just one step stronger as the drag links are both 25mm.
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If you do not change direction, you may end up where you are heading -- Lao Tzu
11:28 pm
January 27, 2011
Offline "TomD" wrote: [quote="FAM"][quote="TomD"]Both of those units are stout!
Mine bent. Not drastically, but enough to throw off the front end alignment. After doing that a few times I replaced the draglink and tierod with heavier duty factory ZJ parts. Later I replaced the ZJ parts with the Currie draglink and tierod. The Currie steering dwarfs the factory TJ steering. Does the XJ use the same steering as a TJ or is it more like the ZJ?
Edit) Correction, I only used the ZJ tierod not the drag link.
The XJ and ZJ share the same drag link (25mm). The v8ZJ tie rod is solid cast steel and significantly more substantial (22mm) while the XJ, TJ and the 6-cyl ZJ use the tube-type tie rod (16mm). Using the RHD drag link as a tie rod is just one step stronger as the drag links are both 25mm.
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Oh, almost forgot ... yes, the XJ, TJ and ZJ all share the same drag link. Also, the Curry is 1-1/4" alloy (32mm) so will be even stronger yet.
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If you do not change direction, you may end up where you are heading -- Lao Tzu
2:44 am
January 22, 2011
Offline
http://www.ruffstuffspecialtie.....m/catalog/
This is where I go for parts. You can make every thing..
5:25 am
Club Member
September 3, 2008
Offline I like Hiem joints.
Um...what?
6:09 am
Club Member
September 3, 2008
Offline I found this steering kit. Looks pretty good.
http://www.jcroffroad.com/Merchant2/mer ... ry_Code=S6
And this is for Willie:
http://sacramento.craigslist.o.....84644.html
Um...what?
12:17 pm
January 27, 2011
Offline "Path 88" wrote: http://www.ruffstuffspecialtie.....m/catalog/
This is where I go for parts. You can make every thing..
"finder_87" wrote: I found this steering kit. Looks pretty good.
http://www.jcroffroad.com/Merchant2/mer ... ry_Code=S6And this is for Willie:
http://sacramento.craigslist.o.....84644.html
Path 88: I wish I had more a talent for fabrication. I've seen those pieces/parts from various manufacturers. :hack:
finder 87: That looks solid to be sure. And I'll make sure that Willie knows someone is watching out for him. 
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If you do not change direction, you may end up where you are heading -- Lao Tzu
2:01 pm
January 27, 2011
Offline OK, last couple of items for this thread and I'll put it to bed ...
1 - I'm going to build up the OTK as described earlier in the thread because (1) it's less $$$ than aftermarket, (2) WAY stronger than what I've got and (3) I'm doing it myself ... with the help of other people's experience, of course.
2 - In respect to track bar/drag link angles and the dreaded "death wobble": the idea it to keep the drag link and track bar operating in the same plane ... parallel to each other. In the typical lift kit you'd get an adjustable track bar with drop bracket (frame side) and dropped pitman arm. They'd have the same drop and would be lowering the body side of the components to maintain the angles. Here's what I'm proposing ...
I'm going to do the OTK which will raise the axle side of the drag link between 2-1/2 and 3". I'm also getting an adjustable track bar with 3" drop bracket which will lower the body side of the track bar. The track bar and drag link will still be parallel in this scheme. Is this a pass or fail?
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If you do not change direction, you may end up where you are heading -- Lao Tzu
2:22 pm
July 15, 2005
Offline Do the steering first. Tie rod and drag link. Figure out if you will need a stock, drop or flat pitman arm. Once that is all in and everything "FITS" and nothing binds or hits, then it is time to move on to the trac bar. I wouldn't buy any trac bar brackets or try and determin how long the track bar is until the rest is done.
"TomD" wrote: OK, last couple of items for this thread and I'll put it to bed ...
1 - I'm going to build up the OTK as described earlier in the thread because (1) it's less $$$ than aftermarket, (2) WAY stronger than what I've got and (3) I'm doing it myself ... with the help of other people's experience, of course.
2 - In respect to track bar/drag link angles and the dreaded "death wobble": the idea it to keep the drag link and track bar operating in the same plane ... parallel to each other. In the typical lift kit you'd get an adjustable track bar with drop bracket (frame side) and dropped pitman arm. They'd have the same drop and would be lowering the body side of the components to maintain the angles. Here's what I'm proposing ...
I'm going to do the OTK which will raise the axle side of the drag link between 2-1/2 and 3". I'm also getting an adjustable track bar with 3" drop bracket which will lower the body side of the track bar. The track bar and drag link will still be parallel in this scheme. Is this a pass or fail?
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__________________
'If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under."- Ronald Reagan
5:15 pm
January 27, 2011
Offline "RobD" wrote: Do the steering first. Tie rod and drag link. Figure out if you will need a stock, drop or flat pitman arm. Once that is all in and everything "FITS" and nothing binds or hits, then it is time to move on to the trac bar. I wouldn't buy any trac bar brackets or try and determin how long the track bar is until the rest is done.
[quote="TomD"]OK, last couple of items for this thread and I'll put it to bed ...
1 - I'm going to build up the OTK as described earlier in the thread because (1) it's less $$$ than aftermarket, (2) WAY stronger than what I've got and (3) I'm doing it myself ... with the help of other people's experience, of course.
2 - In respect to track bar/drag link angles and the dreaded "death wobble": the idea it to keep the drag link and track bar operating in the same plane ... parallel to each other. In the typical lift kit you'd get an adjustable track bar with drop bracket (frame side) and dropped pitman arm. They'd have the same drop and would be lowering the body side of the components to maintain the angles. Here's what I'm proposing ...
I'm going to do the OTK which will raise the axle side of the drag link between 2-1/2 and 3". I'm also getting an adjustable track bar with 3" drop bracket which will lower the body side of the track bar. The track bar and drag link will still be parallel in this scheme. Is this a pass or fail?
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Rob, that makes sense. Thank you!
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If you do not change direction, you may end up where you are heading -- Lao Tzu
5:50 pm
January 27, 2011
Offline Thanks for all the input, folks. With the information received, I'll be sticking to the UTK. My concerns were for TRE operating angles with the lift height that will ultimately be reached and those concerns have been put to rest.
OK, I'm really done now.
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If you do not change direction, you may end up where you are heading -- Lao Tzu
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